Will mythtv be supporting SAT>IP ?

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ullix
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Will mythtv be supporting SAT>IP ?

Post by ullix » Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:44 am

About 6 months ago, the company Inverto had announced a LNB, which could receive simultaneously from up to 8 DVB-S/S2 transponders and convert to an IP stream according to the SAT>IP protocol.
http://www.inverto.tv/products/product. ... 264&cat=99

This LNB will be shipping beginning next month by the German company reichelt electronik at 360€.
http://www.reichelt.de/INVERTO-ILNB/3/i ... H=sat%3Eip

8 channels of SAT video in HD quality served as IP stream!

Is mythtv prepared for this? How?

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Re: Will mythtv be supporting SAT>IP ?

Post by paulh » Sat Jun 14, 2014 6:50 am

I don't know what is involved to get it working but it's going to be difficult to test anything without having the hardware and at that price I doubt anyone will donate one to us :)

As with all features in Myth it needs either a dev with the hardware and the desire to add the feature or more likely a dedicated user who wants the feature badly enough to code it them selves. Sometimes we can work with a user providing patches to test but that would need a dev with the knowledge and desire to work on this.

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Re: Will mythtv be supporting SAT>IP ?

Post by ullix » Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:38 am

paulh,

there might be some misunderstanding. If unfamiliar with SAT>IP, check wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sat-IP

Recently, a couple of TV sets have already come to the market, which do accept the SAT>IP streams. This is one: http://www.panasonic.com/de/consumer/fl ... sw504.html

The 8-channel SAT>IP LNB demonstrates the potential of SAT>IP, but cheaper implementations are available. However, just consider: to upgrade my mythtv backend to accept 8 HD SAT channels with current technology, I would need one octo-LNB (30€)+ 2 cards with 4 tuners each like these ones ( http://www.dvbshop.net/Digital-Devices- ... 2-Bundle_1 ) at 299€ each, for a total of well over 600€! Plus a bundle of 8 SAT-cables from the outside to the inside. On the other hand, the SAT>IP LNB is PoE (Powered over Ethernet) and only a single - perhaps flat - ethernet cable needs to be fed to my network e.g. as a windows bypass. So, not only is it technically a lot easier, it is also a lot less expensive than the alternative!

Tvheadend may have SAT>IP implemented already ( http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?ti ... pid1732772 ), though I'd rather stay with mythtv.

The cheapest box which I can currently find to produce SAT>IP streams is the "Telestar Digibit R1" at 130€ in Germany (http://www.amazon.de/dp/B008OVPYCQ/ref= ... B008OVPYCQ). It requires input via a regular SAT signal via Coax cable (up to 4 inputs) and feeds IP into your local lan.

I personally can do some programming, but not to the level required here. Are you hinting that you would develop the feature, if someone were donating hardware?

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Re: Will mythtv be supporting SAT>IP ?

Post by dekarl » Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:04 am

ullix wrote:8 channels of SAT video in HD quality served as IP stream!
Is mythtv prepared for this? How?
You should already be able to use the device in "IPTV Multicast server" mode. I'm not sure if the device is able of streaming all channels from eight transponders at the same time, but it should be possible.
To use it in "SAT>IP" mode someone needs to write a matching recoder. It would be helpful to have a software SAT>IP server for developers without hardware. E.g. to turn a Raspberry PI plus USB DVB device into a SAT>IP server. (one might also write a server that turns MPEG2TS over HTTP into SAT>IP so one can test without any dedicated hardware. Could use these tv streams https://github.com/Pavion/tvstreamrecord/wiki/Multithek Also note that SAT>IP also supports DVB-C/T so you can test with a cheap DVB-T adapter without installing a dish)

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Re: Will mythtv be supporting SAT>IP ?

Post by ullix » Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:13 am

@dekarl:
the device specs do indeed say it can do 8 channels at the same time (http://www.inverto.tv/products/product. ... 264&cat=99)
It allows up to eight SAT>IP compatible Client devices/apps to receive their selected TV program concurrently
I don't see, how a cheap DVB-T adapter could be used in place of an SAT>IP server (sometimes also called a SAT>IP converter). Such a server has two tasks: convert the satellite signal into an IPTV stream, and accept control commands from clients for tuning to a specific channels (and perhaps set quality, bitrate,...). The clients can be pure software or hardware. While a Raspi could probably be programmed to simulate a SAT>IP server, wouldn't taht be a project of its own? Commercial hardware is certified (http://www.satip.info/products). While you don't need formal certification, I think at a minimum you would need certified hardware to compare with, or not?

There is in-depth information on SAT>IP, like the full specs, developer information, a White Paper and more resources, on this site: http://www.satip.info/resources

And while the specification paper mentions DVB-T support in "Appendix C: Support for DVB-T/T2 (optional)" - DVB-C not mentioned(yet) - there is no DVB-T hardware available http://www.satip.info/products.

This site http://shop.digital-devices.de/epages/6 ... IP_Clients lists a bunch of software clients, including several open source ones, like VLC on various platforms, FFMPEG, XBMC, and VDR-plugin (the latter points to a real patch: http://www.saunalahti.fi/~rahrenbe/vdr/satip/).

When you say I can already use SAT>IP in a "IPTV Multicast server" mode, can you provide some links on how to configure mythtv for that purpose? How would I do the channel switching - with a separate program? And could I record the stream?

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Re: Will mythtv be supporting SAT>IP ?

Post by dekarl » Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:14 pm

ullix wrote:I don't see, how a cheap DVB-T adapter could be used in place of an SAT>IP server (sometimes also called a SAT>IP converter). Such a server has two tasks: convert the satellite signal into an IPTV stream, and accept control commands from clients for tuning to a specific channels (and perhaps set quality, bitrate,...). The clients can be pure software or hardware. While a Raspi could probably be programmed to simulate a SAT>IP server, wouldn't taht be a project of its own?
Yes, writing an SAT>IP server in software, to turn a Raspberry PI plus a DVB-T stick into a SAT>IP server device, would be a project on its own. But it would reduce the barrier of entry for programmers who want to add SAT>IP support to their client software. The extension of that concept is a software SAT>IP server that turns IPTV from the internet into SAT>IP.
ullix wrote:When you say I can already use SAT>IP in a "IPTV Multicast server" mode, can you provide some links on how to configure mythtv for that purpose? How would I do the channel switching - with a separate program? And could I record the stream?
You need to get the tv station to multicast group map from your server, then you can set it up like IPTV from a provider, see e.g. http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Telekom_Entertain_on_MythTV
The channel switching is done internally by switching to another multicast group. The limitation being that you have to decide which tv station you want to stream ahead of time. Basically I expect the multicast server mode to stream all tv stations from 8 statically selected transports while the SAT>IP mode streams 8 dynamically selected tv stations from any transport.

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Re: Will mythtv be supporting SAT>IP ?

Post by ullix » Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:11 am

@dekarl:
your comments read as if we shouldn't banking on seeing any SAT>IP in mythtv any time soon. Is that a correct observation?

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dekarl
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Re: Will mythtv be supporting SAT>IP ?

Post by dekarl » Sat Jun 28, 2014 8:02 pm

ullix wrote:your comments read as if we shouldn't banking on seeing any SAT>IP in mythtv any time soon. Is that a correct observation?
Well, someone has to do actual work and write a SAT>IP recorder. That will be done when its done. Depending on interest and skill coming together that may be sooner or later.

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stuarta
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Re: Will mythtv be supporting SAT>IP ?

Post by stuarta » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:00 pm

Having access to the hardware would certainly help move this along

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Re: Will mythtv be supporting SAT>IP ?

Post by timowi » Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:02 pm

I planned switching my mythtv over to SAT>IP a while ago. Currently I use two USB DVB-S adapters. I bought a SAT>IP server a few month ago. Less than 150€ for a quad DVB-S2 tuner is a good price. Beside getting DVB-S2 I hope it will be more stable than the current USB solution (once in a few month a tuner stops working, recording stops until removing power for a while).

I started looking in the SAT>IP specification and the mythtv code back than. Implementation seemed quite easy but unfortunately I did not found time to look in mythtv code deeper yet.

SAT>IP is a pure transport layer for DVB-S streams. It consist of three parts:
  1. UPnP/SSDP
    mostly used for discovery of the boxes (and for Negotiation between SAT>IP server, not interesting here)
    -> here we get the ip address of the box and the number of frontends (=tuners)
  2. RTSP (Realtime Streaming Protocol) (over TCP)
    control channel to tune a frontend and set up a stream.
    example from the specification:

    Code: Select all

    SETUP rtsp://192.168.128.5/?src=1&fe=1&freq=12402&pol=v&msys=dvbs&sr=27500&fec=34&pids=0,16,50,104,166,1707 RTSP/1.0 
    CSeq: 1 
    Transport: RTP/AVP;unicast;client_port=1400-1401 
    
  3. RTP/RTCP Stream (Realtime Transport Protocol/ Realtime Transport Control Protocol)
    This is the stream set up under point two.
    Unicast or Multicast does't matter. Beside the "addressing" the Protocol und stream is identical.
    This stream is the unmodified mpeg-TS. Under step two a filter can be set up or with pids=all we will get the full stream from that transponder
So in conclusion I think SAT>IP behave exactly the same as local DVB hardware.

mythtv seems to have all protocols already implemented. (But I don't know if they work correctly)

This was/is my plan for implementation
  1. create a copy of the dvb recorder (?)
  2. replace looking in /dev/dvb with UPnP
    UPnP implementation looked good as far as I remember. But I am not sure if usable for that part of the code and I don't know the state of the UPnP client implementation
  3. replace the code for tuning dvb adapters with code to setup over RTSP
  4. replace reading from dvb adapter with reading from RTP network stream.
  5. remove non working code (for example signal monitoring)
RTSP and RTP/RTCP seems already be implemented for some other recorder. So I hope this code is reusable and only some glue logic is needed.

Then the rest should work without modification (channel scanning, eit scanning)

I was not sure if it is a good idea to create a new recorder or add it is some kind of new interface.

So I am interested in helping with the implementation. Testing, debugging, coding. I just do not know much of the mythtv code.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are other ways to use SAT>IP with mythtv. One would be the suggested fixed streams to different multicast addresses (btw this is part of the normal SAT>IP protocol). But the you have to choose which transponder you want to stream.
Another way would be to create a playlist with rtsp entrys. Another example from the specification:

Code: Select all

#EXTM3U 
#EXTINF:0,13. BBC World 
rtsp://192.168.1.202/?src=1&freq=11597&pol=v&msys=dvbs&mtype=qpsk&sr=22000&fec=56&pids=0,16,17,92,163,1858 
#EXTINF:0,14. Sky News 
rtsp://192.168.1.202/?src=1&freq=12604&pol=h&msys=dvbs&mtype=qpsk&sr=22000&fec=56&pids=0,1290,2290,7290,6290,5290 
perhaps this solution does already work with the mythtv iptv recorder? With this solution you need to do channel scan somehow and than compose a playlist like this. Mythtv channel scan and EPG via EIT will not work.
Some SAT>IP boxes provide such an playlist. Link distributed with UPnP. But first this is not required by the specification (and so not implemented by all boxes) and second this is a static. My box is not capable of doing a channel scan.

DVB-T: There is an option to send DVB-T stream in addition over an SAT>IP server. This is an optional feature (I do not know of an implementation in a SAT>IP server) and does NOT give a SAT>IP streams.

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Re: Will mythtv be supporting SAT>IP ?

Post by dekarl » Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:20 pm

timowi wrote:DVB-T: There is an option to send DVB-T stream in addition over an SAT>IP server. This is an optional feature (I do not know of an implementation in a SAT>IP server) and does NOT give a SAT>IP streams.
I was looking into a networked DVB-C tuner and found a SAT>IP with 4xDVB-C and a HDHomerun with 4xDVB-C. That SAT>IP device can also stream 4xDVB-T.
timowi wrote:EPG via EIT will not work.
I have a work in progress (not ETA!) patch to collect EIT from IPTV streams, if you are interested in finishing this I can hand it over to you.
timowi wrote:One would be the suggested fixed streams to different multicast addresses (btw this is part of the normal SAT>IP protocol). But the you have to choose which transponder you want to stream.
Can you post a reference to that spec? In SAT>IP Protocol Specification Version 1.2 there is only mention of setting up one multicast per frontend which can be either SPTS or MPTS. I'd like to know if you can get all services of a transport, each on their own multicast group (basically what MuMuDVB does).
timowi wrote:I was not sure if it is a good idea to create a new recorder or add it is some kind of new interface.
Well, there are multiple existing recorders that are similar to SAT>IP. You could start with a "simple" playlist generator aka IPTV channel scanner that sets up MPTS multicasts per transport (pids=all) and then filters it out via program number in the IPTV recorder. Second step could be extension of that scheme by grouping the iptv channels into dtv_multiplexes and enabling multirec for them.
Another way would be using the DVB recorder and replacing the file access with network access using the unicast transfer with PIDs added/removed on demand.
Both would work with a single SAT>IP server.

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Re: Will mythtv be supporting SAT>IP ?

Post by timowi » Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:27 pm

dekarl wrote:I was looking into a networked DVB-C tuner and found a SAT>IP with 4xDVB-C and a HDHomerun with 4xDVB-C. That SAT>IP device can also stream 4xDVB-T.
didn't know about this one. Would be interesting to know about compatibility with existing SAT>IP clients as DVB-T is specified as optional by the spec..
dekarl wrote:Can you post a reference to that spec? In SAT>IP Protocol Specification Version 1.2 there is only mention of setting up one multicast per frontend which can be either SPTS or MPTS. I'd like to know if you can get all services of a transport, each on their own multicast group (basically what MuMuDVB does).
I thought about steaming a full transponder to one multicast address and then give multicast address and PID in the playlist. I have set up such a system with dvbsteamer and vlc (if I remember correctly) years ago.
My SAT>IP box kind of support this. While testing I was able to get more singlecast streams than I had active frontends. But from specs it seems they limit the the total number of streams to four. I have seen at least one spec where the device had 4 frontend but can stream to 6 or 8 devices.
-> So streaming many programs to their own multicast address is possible with the SAT>IP spec, but available number of streams is limited by the boxes. I think more or less unlimited streaming will only available on professional devices.
dekarl wrote:Well, there are multiple existing recorders that are similar to SAT>IP. You could start with a "simple" playlist generator aka IPTV channel scanner that sets up MPTS multicasts per transport (pids=all) and then filters it out via program number in the IPTV recorder. Second step could be extension of that scheme by grouping the iptv channels into dtv_multiplexes and enabling multirec for them.
Another way would be using the DVB recorder and replacing the file access with network access using the unicast transfer with PIDs added/removed on demand.
Both would work with a single SAT>IP server.
I started creating a new recorder similar to the dvbrecorder. Unfortunately it is more complex then I thought after my first look. Encapsulation is not so good. There is a lot special handling of devices/recorder scattered in many helper classes. Now I first need to restructure my current code before working further on it...

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Re: Will mythtv be supporting SAT>IP ?

Post by ullix » Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:12 am

I had purchased such an Inverto 8 channel SAT>IP LNB (http://www.heise.de/preisvergleich/inve ... 70426.html), which I have now very successfully installed under tvheadend/xbmc. With an experimental recording of 25 channels simultaneously, of which 19 were HD channels, this hardware/software does all what I want.

See my report here: https://tvheadend.org/boards/5/topics/13486

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Re: Will mythtv be supporting SAT>IP ?

Post by stuartm » Wed Oct 22, 2014 11:44 am

Good for you, but what does that have to do with MythTV?

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Re: Will mythtv be supporting SAT>IP ?

Post by Shyru » Sun Dec 28, 2014 1:55 pm

Is there any progress on this front? Has anyone tried to hook mythtv up with such a SAT>IP receiver with the use m3u playlists or even with a "real" recorder specific for SAT>IP?
I am a longtime (9+ years) mythtv user from germany (Thanks for mythtv, it is great!). My current server where mythtv runs is quite aging and I fear of it breaking sooner or later. I currently use two DVB-S2 hauppauge cards (PCI, cannot remember the exact model anymore). I'm wishing to upgrade my hard and software and I would love to get rid of the need for PCI (or USB) for recording and would love to use something that works over ethernet. That makes it possible to easily virtualize the mythtv server, switch server hardware easily, etc. This is the reason I'm very interested in SAT>IP in mythtv as it would provide that easily.
I just ordered a "Telestar Digibit R1 Sat-IP Network Transmitter" (125 € at Amazon) and will try it out to get it to run with mythtv, so any information from others how to do that would be helpful.

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